In the second episode of the Deepest Spirituality podcast season 2, Sunshine and Graham invite listeners to an enlightening discussion on the intricacies of personal growth. They emphasize the pivotal role of curiosity and self-discovery in understanding oneself and the world around us. Through candid conversations, the duo navigates the uncomfortable terrain of addressing past traumas and engaging in difficult dialogues, shedding light on the power of vulnerability and the art of surrender. Listeners are encouraged to embrace self-reflection, cultivate empathy, and act authentically in their personal journeys. This episode underscores the importance of taking responsibility for one’s actions and ensuring the well-being of all involved, offering profound insights into heartfelt apologies and genuine connections.

Sunshine   00:00

Hey everyone, welcome back to diva spirituality, we are on season two, episode two, you got your co host here, Sunshine pink here at psychic medium.

Graham Skidmore  00:09

And Graham, the self proclaimed breaker mold and builder of bridges. As

Sunshine   00:14

we’re reminding all of you right now, if you’re hearing this for the first time, please go take a look at all of the major podcasting platforms because we should be on them find this on YouTube, you know, like, subscribe, all that kind of great stuff so that we know what you did and what we should keep putting out. We are supposed to have a guest today. And so I’m just gonna say a little prayer right now that our guest Kristen is okay, doing well. And that, you know, just life kind of got the better of her today and that there isn’t anything going on. But just say a little prayer just in case there is. So we are we’re flipping the script a little bit today pull in a little bit of a pivot, and instead of me kind of being in the, maybe the interviewer seat, I’m gonna let our dear friend Graham ask some questions, because our relationship is probably often then me asking him more questions than the other way around for the last almost two years or so. But before we do that, let’s go ahead and make sure that we connect with everyone, we’re gonna go ahead. And if you have the luxury and are able to close your eyes, right now, I’d encourage you to go ahead and close them. And I just want you to imagine with your eyes closed, that there’s a bright, bright white beam of light that extends all the way from the crown of your head, high, high, high, above, way, way, way, far above us, just imagine, even if you were to go ahead and look up there, and maybe you just had your finger on a mouse and you’re able to scroll out, you just keep going farther and farther. And that beam of light continues going up and up and up. It’s all the way it’s well past the earth, it’s well past, the very top of what you can even fathom is the galaxy, that we’re currently in the Milky Way, get all the way as high as you possibly can imagine, to the very tip top of the cosmos. And in the top of that white beam of light exists the star star that represents your Higher Self just twinkling and sparkling and maybe even dancing a little bit doing a little jig, maybe it’s excited, it’s had a good day. And it’s just feeling real good. And as you take a look at your star, I want you to then look across and notice another star right there, right there across from you. And that star that stars, stars pink, and it’s twinkling, and it’s dancing. And it’s, you know, just kind of like waving and looks like it’s sparkling it Yeah, and that star that’s me. That star is me. Right, and I want you to look even again, and you see another star and that’s Graham star. And as you notice this, you start to look around and there’s all sorts of other stars all around. Every everywhere that you could possibly look in front of you next year, besides you have you just stars. And the moment you notice the vastness of all of these stars, you look back at mine, that pink one. And from there directly from the middle of your star all the way to the middle of my star, two, bright silver threads extend, reaching out and tying themselves together right there in the middle connecting each other. And just as that connection happens, every other star that exists, begins to connect in the same way. And what we’re all looking at right here now is that collective consciousness, our connection to each other, to every single one that exists. Here, the present now before and even in the future. Just take a deep breath in Oh, and just love and adore all of that wonderful, beautiful connection that we have together, exhaling it out, and then just welcome ourselves right back here to today’s episode, so Graham, my dear friend. I’m super anxious, which is really just excitement to find out what you might want to ask or explore with me today.

Graham Skidmore  04:35

Alright, well let me try to first of all, thank you. This is gonna be gonna be interesting, right? So for those of you that don’t know, we didn’t know this was happening up until a few moments ago. So I have all of a sudden written down some questions that you share things go. But as you can imagine if you know we’re going to do this and we might as well do this, which means these are not necessarily going to be comfortable topics. Meaning, you know that And that’s what makes him good. That’s what makes him enjoyable. Right? So that’s why I kind of want to set the table though, so that there’s a proper context. Because, you know, that’s that’s the other half the battle. Right? So one of the things that, that I found quite interesting, and one of the things that I wanted, you know, a challenge is we’ve all talked about our spiritual journeys, right, and you take a step back, and you start to see the world differently, right. And you notice things that you didn’t see before, right? And you got your head down, and compared to any of your head down and work and things of that nature. And it’s quite interesting, you know, how much everything is focused on? I’m just, you know, pretty I’m not talking about conspiracy theories, but just the practicalities of being busy, inhibit the ability to be curious. Right? And to explore and to do things, let and then when you combine that with just saying such as curiosity killed the cat. Well, if I’m a little kid, and I’m thinking to myself, Well, I’m very curious about this. Well, then I hear this little story about a curiosity killed the cat. Well, you know, right, you know that some of that doesn’t get lost in this in somebody’s psyche, right? And so on our path. And why bring that up? Because in our podcast, that we recorded our episode, right, one of the things you asked me is, what would I wish for everybody has just sparked a curiosity, to look around? Do we really believe that this is as good as it can be? Do we look in the mirror and believe this is really as good as it gets? Absolutely not. There’s no way it can be if there is that this is as good as it gets, then there’s literally no reason right? But I mean, if you i For me, personally, just motivation. Yeah, no other motivation to keep getting better to wake up tomorrow. There you go. Now a lot of motor car is helpful with the wording right. So it’s really hard to wake up the right motivation. This is already as good as it gets, right. So as messed up as it sounds, you want to look in the mirror and look around and see things that aren’t good, because you want another and better, right. Anyway. So we got it. But then so so that the I’ve found that the nuggets of information that help, right, are in these uncomfortable conversations. Right. Right. And so and so I kind of set that up, because I want to talk about right, it’s about sparking curiosity. And so one of the things that we think about curiosity and people who I’m curious, I read books, right? Well, here’s one of the challenges that I’ve gone through with reading books is that there’s that there is a couple fold. Number one is, you know, they’re either channeled, written by in the military or phrase, that book, when I say books, I’m referring to books that talk about this is what you need to do to ascend, this is what you need to do to operate these higher levels, right? All of these really, you know, like, very existential accomplishments, for lack of a better description, right? Those type of books, right, and these How To books are all are either channeled. And so therefore interpret, you know, many, multiple lines of interpretation are written by people who think are explaining how they think it should work, not actually people that did it, right, or there are they’re written from a perspective that can only be understood by humans. And then that gets into the deeper perspective. Because if you’re, if you’re being taught how to be more human, and that human ness is kind of what prevents you from seeing what you’re supposed to see, you see, the inherent Rob that there is then in even being curious and rubbing information. So these are the things why are you know, suddenly. So that’s kind of what these the types of discussions that are that are fun for me, right? And so anyway, so that’s kind of setting the table of saying, All right, so when you think about that, you’re like, Well, wait a second here. So you’re totally does that doesn’t sound very promising grand? And that kind of sounds like even if I’m curious, I’m screwed. No, no, no, not at all. I think that’s what we’re here to talk about. Right? Is there’s very is that there’s many layers of truth in books, and how do you figure out truth? And how do you know where stuff doesn’t jive? And how do you make those things for yourself? Right? And how do you start to then understand the, when you read what you read in the book, when you see them compared to how they play on practicality you see the hypocrisy is or how the things worked against each other. Right? Now, words have been weaponized, so that while they’re both powerful, and to attract, right, anyway, and so anyway, so that being said, that was that’s kind of me setting up for, hey, let’s have a little fun and talk about some, some things and so I thought that, uh, one that could be well, I don’t know I’ll just jump right into it. So it was it is the comparing of everything’s supposed to happen for a reason with the need to apologize to people with things that occur. So let’s just say for example, like you and I were talking about this right, and I’ll bring it up myself so I don’t feel like I’m right. So I was talking about an exercise of in my transformation, and you know, making a list of forgive of kind of like saying, forgiveness or otherwise for lack of a better term, you know, and as I was going through this, I’m saying to myself, well, if we’re all supposed to be experiencing we’re supposed to be experiencing even the shitty stuff right? Then I then I really shouldn’t be apologizing to people for anything I should be saying you’re welcome for providing you these learning experiences. Now that being said, that type of sharing that with somebody instead of it Have a have an apology for like, Hey, I know you really hurt your feelings. And And I’m saying You’re welcome. I’m sorry, is not going to be what is not going to be met Well, right. So there’s a so there’s a certain rub, right? So let’s just talk about something like that where all right. You know, I know how I kind of figured out how to navigate this in my, in my mind and in my piece. I’m wondering like how you reconcile that with all of the different healing modalities and success that you’ve had, right in navigating to be able to anchor your mind into a clear plane of thought versus that hamster wheel that you could find yourself on?

Sunshine   10:34

Yeah, you know, that’s, that’s, I’ll try to rephrase, I guess the question that I think you’re asking, just so I know, I’m answering the right thing. Right, it’s how how do I, you know, come to terms with the conflict that exists between everything happens for a reason? And the fact that as humans, we often are part of what is happening to other people? Right, you know, meaning if, if what if we do inflict, whether it’s conscious or unconscious pain on someone, you know, how do we handle this whole like necessity to apologize? That’s a really interesting question. For me, I’ve had, I mean, I’ve gotten into a lot of debates with folks, especially like my ex husband around the words, I’m sorry. Because my my own personal belief is I actually think they’re kind of pointless words, a lot of ways you can say them, right, which is okay. And sometimes it’ll bring comfort, right? But it’s the actions that truly matter, right. So this is like the example is with is with my ex husband, he would say I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry for doing certain things. And he would continue to do them over and over again. And so that sorry, that apology was, you know, really hit empty. And so you say everything happens for a reason in that regards. And even right now, my guides are telling me yet kept happening and over and over again, to show me that it was in my place to exit that relationship. Right. So I’m not a huge fan, I do think it can, it can come I think an apology is not going to be as powerful as really just sitting and listening to someone, and allowing them to express their pain or their suffering that they’re experiencing in those moments. And you can say, you know, very truthfully, and honestly, like, wow, I’m really sorry that you’ve had to go through all of that. Right. Even if I inflicted, you know, the pain, like, I’m sorry, that’s so hard for you, is a lot of the ways I don’t try to take on me personally. And I think a lot of my own understanding of this was when I started to become familiar with like the victimhood with, you know, people being a victim. And so, you know, like, we’re not the moment we want to step into, or we expect an apology for someone or we need that apology, like, we are taking that victim badge, and we’re putting it on and waving the flag and saying I’m the king of the victims, right, and saying, like, it’s not in my control to feel better. Right, I’m looking external to someone else to try to reconcile my emotional state. But I think in my recovery, it’s, you know, what we’ve just learned is, it’s all it’s all very much internal and personal. And so, you know, how do I reconcile that? I’m very conscious of the situation and whether or not that the situation itself is presenting any of that victimhood, right, like, if somebody’s just truly hurt, and they’re just like, you know, I’m really sad and upset and I just can’t believe that, you know, you would have you know, that that’s the way you would have approached this or something of that nature. I you know, once again, I I can, I can apologize for I’m so sorry, that’s, that’s this is hard on you. But at the end of the day, it’s really hard to apologize when you’re living like, this is the slippery slope that it ends up on is because often when we are taking action or saying things or anything of that nature, if we’re doing it in an alliance for ourselves and an impact someone else people think that they’re, they deserve it, they owed an apology. Right, I made a decision to not go somewhere and so I might, you know, I’ll give you an example. Like when I started to go no contact a lower contact with my parents. You know, I would get these really like exasperated like, you know, you sure and you don’t want to go and we wish you would go that really hurts. And, you know, it’s like you feel obligated to say I’m sorry, right? I’m sorry, but at the end, I wasn’t. I wasn’t sorry. Like I was making a decision for myself. So I really think When it comes to those situations, they’re very, you have to be very conscious of where the apology is coming from and why it’s being used. And just from a personal perspective, like, I’m very, for me personal, it’s, I don’t necessarily even need an apology most of the time, I need to see that the actions that somebody has recognized, you know, and that their actions are following. And that’s, that’s a that’s a that’s a real that’s a real, real interesting question. Because everything does happen for a reason. But yeah, there are some people that would have a real hard time with the with the that means that you don’t have to apologize that.

Graham Skidmore  15:47

Yeah. Not just not apologize, but not feel. The need to apologize. Yeah. Now, if you’re responsible for guys, for that matter, right? Oh,

Sunshine   15:58

yeah. I would, I would, I would speculate, you know, I can’t remember if we’ve shared with any of the listeners in the last one, the fact that you know, both you and I identify as neurodivergent. And I wonder how many folks whether either neurodivergent, or, you know, folks that are even on the spectrum like, like, it’s like, they often don’t feel like if you don’t, if you if something was never done intentionally. There’s like, an apology doesn’t make sense. Right? Like, it’s like, Oh, I was just being myself. And I’m not supposed to apologize for that, like,

Graham Skidmore  16:33

well, this is where I, well, this is where, like, you just talked about the rub of the word Well, one of the rubs, which is those that are, you know, you’ve got the majority of people that fall into the, I’ll just call it understanding the solely human perspective. And so they built all of the world in the infrastructure and the beliefs and everything else around that, right. And then you’ve got a smaller portion that, you know, sees and understand the world in a different way. And understanding that have a different belief and understand the intelligent design behind the system in which we live in. And so their higher selves, understand that, but that is then in Rob, once they actually get out into the physical plane, which, you know, anyway, that’s a whole nother, you know, set of issues. But yeah, I mean, that. And I think that’s part of the rub. And I think that’s a really important point. Because what, for those that don’t reconcile that, they can also go, they can also have experienced aspects of psychosis and going crazy, because what they believe to be real, and absolutely is real, because it’s not experienced by others. They’re telling you it’s not real. And so you can either get yourself all doped up on some pills until you just don’t care anymore, right? You know, or which unfortunately, gets, you know, forced on people, right. And that’s, and that’s, anyway, that’s like a whole sad, another topic, or there’s just a lack of, there’s a lack of people that can say, hey, you’re not crazy. Let me tell you why you make sense. And here’s how we got to bridge but here’s how you got to your psyche has got to bridge the world, so you can get grounded and get your feet underneath. Yeah, and still feel safe. And like that, anyway, so. So that’s really what this is about. Right? And that’s why it’s so important to ask these questions, because there are so many people that are listening that I guarantee you’re trying to figure going, wait a second here that yeah, that’s kind of like I relate to that, like, I know that she does. Oh, what am I going to do about it? How do I get my feet on the ground so that you know I still got operate in the physical world regardless? Oh,

Sunshine   18:28

yeah. I mean, there’s there’s a lot of folks that you know, that may have heard me say like, apologies don’t really mean much to me. Right? That would just like balk at that right. But I would wonder for anybody that like that that took a step back that heard that how many times in your life does that is that apology really what you needed? Is that really what you need it or did you need them to show you more respect? Did you need them to you know, appreciate you in a way that they hadn’t appreciated you before like that’s like the words words have power we’ve said this before many many times. But not if they not if they don’t like when it comes to an apology not if the action doesn’t come with it. Right it’s I have no problem with like, Oh, I’m sorry, I took your I use the last of the sugar. Here you go. I went out and bought some more. You know, it’s a hell of a lot different than i i usually like walking up to the sugar bowl to make your coffee and go and there’s nothing left. Oh, I’m sorry. I was like, Wait a second. You didn’t You didn’t put it on the board and you didn’t go get any you waited until I found out like Are you are you really sorry. Right.

Graham Skidmore  19:48

So you bring there’s also two interesting parts about this conversation. One is like real time and one is historical when it comes to this kind of like apology thing, right? And I want to add another twist in there. which is look, I personally feel that I personally believe that the making of the reaching back out to historical things and making of amends or reaching out is a very, very selfish act. Right. And it’s really so it’s a really self centered act. And, and and in Baton, which by the way, I don’t think it’s wrong to if somebody wants to do that, that’s like, cool, but what I have the issue with is that is the and this is where the learning gets lost, right? Where like, if somebody says, Look, I acknowledged as a fully a self centered thing, because I’m feeling this guilt, and I want to try to make amends to get it off my chest. And so yeah, I recognize that I’m gonna open up an old wound. And that’s a selfish thing to do. But I’m going to try to, you know, if that’s your, if you’re being honest with yourself, and that’s your, hey, that’s cool. But don’t don’t, but don’t call me up after five years of like, I haven’t thought about you or the situation or anything else. And all of a sudden bring it up to me, like, I give a shit. And now of us now I gotta go deal with both my time energy and whatever else to deal with that situation at that provided me absolutely 000 benefit aside from Okay, cool, I could give you a say, Oh, you’re fine, you’re forgiven. And I can feel like I was a compassionate kind person, which, you know, cool. But there’s much better ways and much more productive ways for all of us to you know, forgive ourselves, as well as demonstrate, you know, compassion and kindness as well. So I guess what is your thoughts on on, you know, that kind of being a selfish act versus a selfless act?

Sunshine   21:44

Well, I absolutely believe that it’s a selfish act, right. But I don’t, I don’t think being selfish is a negative thing. There’s, there’s a time and a place for that, right. And so as somebody that’s been in recovery, that’s done a 12 step program, the amends part was probably one of the more difficult steps for me, and not because I didn’t want to make those amends. But and I remember, like my sponsor, and then like, my stuff with my sponsor fell through. So I remember talking with my therapist a lot about this. It wasn’t that I didn’t want to make amends. There’s this piece in the amends piece when he you know, read the steps. And it says, To make amends, as long as it won’t cause harm. Right. And so that’s the thing, that’s when I would get into these really deep debates with like, my either sponsor or my therapist was like, how am I to judge whether or not bringing up that old wound is going to cause someone harm? I mean, how am I to know how they’ve processed or not processed with something that I may or may not have done? And so, you know, I mean, I’m Graham, I don’t think that you’ve ever read, you know, the manuscript or anything for my book, but I completely redo that step. I completely, like you can do it, if it makes sense. Like, you know, let’s say, for example, you know, I’m trying to think of like, an event, I mean, I’ll tell you like, an A men right now, you know, my ex partner, when I hit rock bottom, I was a complete and utter like, you know, confess to him, I was horrible. And so I made amends to him, and said, You know, I’m so sorry. Right, you know, like, you didn’t deserve any of that. I was so mean, and I was so cruel. And you’ve treated me unbelievably well, and you didn’t, you didn’t deserve did not deserve a piece of that, and I’m so sorry. Right. And, in that particular regards, I wasn’t, you know, potentially opening up an old wound, I knew I understood, I still had a relationship. But like, one of the things that I talked about with this, and you know, the amends and things of that nature is like, sometimes it’s going to cause you more damage. So, you know, for example, if I at if I would have tried to, let’s say, approach, my father, and try to make amends to some of the shitty things that I had done to him, because I had, I mean, he wasn’t a great father to be, but there are shitty things that I did, you know, the likelihood that that would have opened up a wound, or or he would have resorted right back to his same emotionally abusive ways in response to my amends would have been a horrible situation for the both of us. So one of the ways that I suggest for amends, you know, me as a practicing witch is to do spell work for them, to include them in ritual to do a healing ritual to do a Forgiveness Ritual or something of that nature, right, to make a donation in their name, for you know, some something that mattered to them. Right, there are other ways to kind of put that energetic of forgiveness and out there in the world, and thus, transmute whatever that guilt or shame is that you have, because of that act, you know, because of whatever you are. So, ya know, I believe it’s a completely self LIS, we don’t make amends for anyone but ourself, we do so so that we are unburdened of shame, guilt. And, you know, even sometimes I would, it’s interesting, I guess, I’d never thought of this shame, guilt, and even, um, cycles of grief. Interesting like that they just said, right, and if we don’t, you know, in essence, kind of make those amends and willing to let go of some of these things that we’ve carried on to it’s a sort of very difficult burden to bear. That’s a that’s a very hard cross to bear. Yeah.

Graham Skidmore  25:55

So is it bad podcast adequate to answer your own question after you, you know, to share your perspective you might have? Yeah, which is, as you could imagine, right? It’s very similar, right? Because I started going through this and trying to think about, right words matter, and I’m starting to then feel like, I’m like, Why am I feeling guilt or shame? Or about some of the stuff like, you know, there’s all, you know, anyway, with in so what i, where i got to was, you know, kind of just kind of, like, I got to a spot where I was able to thank them for their involvement with my life for whatever it was that allowed me that learning experience, right? Whether it was they treated me shitty, or I treated them shitty, right. And for those that, of course, interesting, you know, and it’s always easier to forgive those that treated you shitty, versus forgive those that you treated. Like, you know, it’s like that weird forgiveness of self thing, right? Like, anyway. So I mean, they came out the wrong way anyway. Where I was going with that, where we’re sorry, what I was trying to say, is that, first I had to thank them for their involvement, then I then I got to a chance to appreciate them for the grace in which they handled that learning experience in my life. Because there were times where I was, I’ll just call, you know, a douchebag. Right, like, I played this part of what I thought I was supposed to be in corporate America and to get ahead and right and, and so anyway, and so, so people could have the grace that they that the grace that was provided to me to learn, you know, in many cases, is I ended up having a tremendous amount of appreciation for, and even though that, you know, I had, you know, they ended, you know, in bad emotions, I got to, I left with thanking them for their grace with me, as I was learning. And so then what that got to was me praying for them, to also be able to figure out how to be able to have grace for their own situations in life, and to be able to let go, and you know, as well, the same as that I, you know, they taught me, I hope that that same thing, and then isn’t able to be taught for them. And so that was just your point. That’s because you’re right, I’m not saying hey, because the the system isn’t designed also to be like, Hey, you’re, you’re supposed to just be allowed to be yourself a punching bag, and nothing happens. No, that’s not the case, either.

Sunshine   28:13

No, I mean, a men’s and essence are a way you know, if we were to think about, we’re gonna go and look at, you know, recovery in a 12 step program, that I think it’s step four, you know, I should be better at it. But when we start building our inventory, and everything like that, but there was a men’s are a way to transmute that shame and guilt, you know, so in the alchemical process, it’s the way of being able to release, you know, what it is that you know, once created hardship on you. And, you know, it’s possible to do that without telling the other individual. Right now, don’t get me wrong, if that other individual, like, there is this piece that I’ve often wondered, and I’ve just not yet hit it, I’ve not gotten a clear answer or scenario. But like if there is a karmic kind of tie between you and that other individual, right, something like very intent, like you that you may be really, really called and compelled to doing it, even though it might be uncomfortable, and it might open up some wounds, like it is possible, that that you still might be called to do that. But I really think that’s a you know, those are the types of situations you know, like, I didn’t have a sponsor that I worked with, through everything, because once again, weird thing, but those are the types of situations that I would imagine a sponsor, a spiritual guide, a spiritual mentor, to someone out an elder, somebody that you can lean on and ask them to give you a perspective that says, you know, should you know, if I were to go down this path, you know, do you have the foresight of of, of any any like, is there something I’m missing? Because like, I can’t think of one off the top of my head. I you know, specifically for myself, but it is it has been a question out, you know, I’ll give you an example of one. This has been one and every time I’ve asked, I’ve gotten to know I was when I was a teenager, I had a next door neighbor, I’ve no clue shall ever listen to this. So we’ll see. I was really good friends with she was the same age as me. And her and her old family left, and went out of town. And I watched their house and had a couple of people over. And we, you know, like four of us, like partied in her house. And I took her car up to went and picked my friend up. And it put a rife a big ripple in our friendship, you know, moving forward, was the same after that particular Pete and I’ve wondered whether or not I should go back. And like, do I owe it to have an obligation to, like, open that up, and like, have that conversation and admit, like, you know, I was wrong. I mean, she knew I was wrong, she wrote a letter, all that kind of stuff. And every time I’ve gone into ask, and I get like a no, it’s like, you don’t want to open up these, these wounds. But there might be a point in life when I asked that question. And I’m told yes. And it would be an uncomfortable conversation for me, right, I don’t know what might be called in her life that she needs to revisit it or anything of that nature. Or allow, they just told me if she’s ever, you know, her, her kids are getting older. So if there’s ever like a situation, so there might be a point that we’re actually called to have those deeper, like discussions and to, to open the wounds again. But I’m not a big fan, I just am not the big fan of the whole blindly going in and making amends and apologizing to people. Because as humans, we’re actually pretty shitty. And most of us are probably not really good at accepting apologies. Right. And so the likelihood that you may end up hurting again, you know, retriggering, and opening that wound up and, you know, or creating more in the process to me is, I think that’s, it’s, there’s a high probability, especially for those of us that have experienced trauma in our life. You know?

Graham Skidmore  32:23

Yeah, it’s funny, that you mentioned, you know, the giving up, you know, it’s just about guilt. And I, it’s funny, I can’t tell you how many times that people have misunderstood my actions as being aligned when they’re absolutely purely selfish. Meaning people like I took, you know, what I’m doing my corporate time. And, you know, I was fortunate to to have some economic success, and being able to do is to take care of my parents for a while. And so you know, people would say, Graham, why are you doing this? And to your point? Well, because I was told when I was a kid, all these family problems were my fault. And so I was like, Well, here’s the deal. All right, I’ll make your life easier. I’ll make amends by paying for your lives and stuff moving forward. And I’m not doing it because I’m going to help you. I’m doing it so that if you die tomorrow, I can look in the mirror and be like, Yeah, my conscience is clear. I made good. I caused you grief in life. As a child. I wasn’t ABS I know that I was healthy. I know that I was a tear I know that I caused, you know, that’s cool. I’ll accept that. And, and now I try I’m trying to your point, right. These are my these words, you know, the adults on boarded me here. So I wanted to try to provide my reparations back to them for the for the damage that I did cause them and people would say, Why do you keep doing that? Gram? You? They don’t like you, they’re not exactly like great to you. Like they don’t like and obviously because it’s not for them. It’s for me, right? And then people would look and then they would go well that are other things. And that let selfish and I’m like, well, to your point look as much as two point humans and interact is we have a certain connectivity to each other. But um, but at the end of the day, as much as there have been people that have been willing to say, How can I help you, I have yet to run across one human that’s come across on my doorstep, ring the doorbell and said, By the way, I’m here to handle all of your bills and be responsible for your wealth for your mental well being. Let’s talk until it happens. I got to do what’s right for me. Right. Yeah, and what feels right. And so that gets us to the next big topic. I want to tie this into what you started to touch on, which is how do you then learn how to navigate these situations and make sure that it’s that it’s you know, that you’re doing it through a place of surrender, listening to your higher self versus call it like, ego and those things now and that’s what I want to start getting into because now we got to start talking about leveraging the guides, and the gifts that are that are also provided. So anyway, I’ll let you jump in now.

Sunshine   34:55

How do you navigate that? I mean, you know the ego It’s a very human thing. And in a lot of ways it’s meant to. It’s meant to treat us good. You know, it’s where our self confidence exists where our pride of like, you know, accomplishing things exist, like, Oh, I’m so glad I figured that out finally, like, Yay, you know, type of stuff. You know, and I think it’s kind of interesting a bit of what they’re saying, like, I think once again, if you were to take and you’re looking at you, you’re gonna have an ego, and you’ve applied like childhood trauma or anything of that nature, it changes the function of that, of what that ego like really is meant to do. And so I think for a lot of people that are out there, it’s gonna be hard, because I think so many of us have grown up with childhood trauma, and are still not at a point that we’ve truly understood how to embody and release it. Right. And so I think, because that when you are facing that knowing how to navigate what to do, can be very challenging, you know, it can be very challenging to know, you know, with some of the conversations what your truth is, right? Because that is where we get to actually claim our truth. Our I am is exist within our ego, we get to state that, but if at trauma has created everybody else has written all those I am scripts for you. Right? I am the troublemaker in the family. I am the reason that families had problems. I am I am I am I am. It’s really hard to be able to navigate and do that. And so, you know, you talk about listening to the guides, I think I really think and it’s so weird that I’m even saying this, I think the first step is, is, you know, it goes back to that road to recovery here in my head, like, the first step is you have to admit that you don’t have all the fucking answers in the first place. Like, you’ve got to admit to that, you’ve got to say, like, I have no clue how to navigate this. I’m not the one in control everything that I even if what you’ve already done has gotten you into good places. There’s a reason like, if you don’t feel like you are on top of the world, in love with life 24/7, then there is an opportunity there for you to as we were kind of saying like, you know, there’s there should be some motivation for you to want something better. Right, to take this action. So, yeah, I think that I think that’s kind of the first place with that ego and truly admitting, you know, that you that you don’t got this anymore, that you’ve you’ve got to ask for help. And you have to be selfish with those actions. Right.

Graham Skidmore  37:54

Can I jump in real quick? Yeah, I think that part of this, the answer is actually you just said he’s acknowledging that you don’t got it anymore. And you know, I think it’s, it’s kind of like I had to acknowledge that I never had it. Done got it anymore. Right? It was I never used myself thinking that like, thinking that I had it. So speaking of that, so not the hardest. So we’ve me personally, right? The clear, Cognizant ability is one that I leaned on the majority of my life, and it’s definitely one that is, you know, just cognitive reasoning. It’s, you know, very dominant in me, which made it which, which then when you talk about surrendering, accepting that you don’t have the answers, right? Well, when that’s what I would you also be, you know, having the other player abilities, I can tell you having the ability to if you tell me that I can’t hear anymore, I gotta rely on my clear, clairvoyance versus my claircognizance. Then cool, like, all right, whatever. But when you take when I’m mainly a clear, cognizant, and that’s it, and now you’re like, Hmm, I gotta let that go. I was like, Well, wait a second. That’s like, my whole identity. And I think that that’s another place then would that and I bring that up, because we don’t know, divergence. I’m sure there’s a lot of listeners that probably fall into this category is how do you then you know, maintain that sense of self? Or groundedness or whatever the healthy psyche is, right? Where you don’t? Wow, allowing you to let go, but still trust that those gifts that you’re given because they could kind of work in conflict where you’re like, Hey, I’m supposed to be trust what’s being told to me? By myself? Kind of right I guess. Anyway, so what what kind of advice would you give somebody to try to help them navigate that finds themselves? Were like, Hey, listen, my clear cog stuff and all these other things released it felt that way? That’s the shit that got me into trouble.

Sunshine   39:40

Yeah, you know, it’s interesting. I I’m kind of surprised that there, I guess I’m not surprised that they’re giving me this answer, but I am kind of like, curious. I’m like, Oh, wow. Because part of what they just said is like, this is why there’s so many of us that I think you know, be based upon, like, our poor experiences in life think that we can do all this shit on our own. Right? Like, we just, that’s like a thought that we have, we’re like, No, I’m good, I got it. It’s my journey and all this kind of stuff. And like, even for anybody that’s listening, like, let’s be real, if you were born and raised in any type of Christian like type of background, you’re also going to know that little statement that like, Jesus walks alongside of me type thing, right? Like, the truth is, like, we can’t fucking do this shit on our own like, like, being like, being a human is hard. It’s a very hard thing. And if it was just us, and like a blank, kind of like world, maybe it’d be easy, but the fact that there’s a whole ton of us that are hanging out, and trying, you know, and like part of our ability to thrive is connection with others, I truly think the number one way is to is to be able to lean on other individuals. And this can be leaning on them in a fact of, maybe you’ve got a pastoral like a pastor that you’re leaning on, right? Like literally in the spiritual sense, a spiritual guy that you’re leaning on, maybe you have a psychic that you work with on a regular basis. But this could be a therapist, or really great best friend, this could be a recovery group, right? Allowing something else outside for you to be able to kind of reflect and see. See back, right, and I’m not talking about individuals, this is where the slippery slope gets, because there are people that sometimes will be in your life, that will put a mask on that they have your best interest in heart in mind, when in actuality they themselves, their world is so fucked up, that they find comfort in controlling others. Right. So yeah, I mean, I, my my suggestion, my advice for anyone is don’t think you can fucking go it alone, find someone, sign someone out there, and I don’t care, it can start with a book. Right? But then go find someone to talk to that book about how did they apply that book as human beings, the way that we learn, there’s two things, we have to experiment ourselves, or we have to learn how other people experimented. Right, that’s how we’re gonna navigate life. Right, and you have to be willing to experiment, or you have to talk to other peoples that have experimented.

Graham Skidmore  42:20

I heard so a word that I wrote down as you were talking was vulnerability. And the importance of vulnerability when it comes to working through this stuff. Right, there’s no other way there is. There is no, there really, I mean, actually, I don’t wanna say there is no other way to work through with it, because that’s, but to your point, there is a certain connective connectivity that they you know, that is meant to occur amongst humans, right. And, and assisting each other when it’s needed. And so, you know, right. And so we’re meant to be able to, we’re intended to be able to be vulnerable to each other, other along the way, you know, in the collective consciousness, right, all stuff exists. And so the those that choose to manipulate that vulnerability, you know, became much more of a commonplace and predominant in the collective consciousness as time in history has gone on, right. And so, and, and as such, we’ve gotten shittier and shittier to each other as such, right? Because we can’t, we can’t we don’t have we lose, when you don’t, when you can’t be vulnerable, it’s hard to have that, that faith that anyone’s walking alongside you that you talked about. Right? And so without that, and if you don’t have faith, and you can’t be vulnerable, then what do you do? Now? You have a society of fear? And if you and and then how do you keep yourself safe? Well, then you need laws. And you need attorneys, and you need police. Yeah. So now all of a sudden, you have this, this unbelievably unnecessary infrastructure that simply provided because we choose not to trust each other. And because we choose because so many people have chosen just take advantage. And so this is the problem when when funds, forget religion, but when you start to remove that concept in that in that faith, from a society, whatever that means, that belief and that’s something more important that there to look out and walk with us right? Now you’re left with having to create these contracts to cover your ass. And, you know, I’m oversimplifying, if anyone were you gonna say

Sunshine   44:23

there’s also this, this fact of, you know, when we ended up in this, like, which I think a lot of where our society is, when we end up giving away our sovereignty, right? So instead of being you know, sovereignty, the definition is, you know, authority over self, right, the ability to govern ourself, right. So when we go ahead and start giving it over, like when we when we want to say, you know, you’re actually you know, I’m thinking about like the violence and the law and the police like, when we are saying like, I am no longer willing to be a good person. Just to like a good human being, I now need someone else to tell me what that looks like. That’s what laws are. That’s in essence, what we’re doing. We’re like, we’ve ended up in this fear based society where like, I no longer trust myself enough to just be a good human being, I need someone, I need another human being to get together with a bunch of other human beings, and then to try to reach some type of consensus on what it means to be a good human being because I don’t trust my own judgment that I know what a good human being, which is, like, I mean, it’s a wild wild, you know, thought.

Graham Skidmore  45:36

So, oh, let’s, let’s keep the wild going. So when you think about the contradictions in society, what you just talked about was how everybody gives away their self sovereignty, and wants to, but yet, everybody, but everybody has an opinion, and is so quick to judge everybody else. I shouldn’t say everywhere, but, but the amount of judging now that occurs all of a sudden, every all of a sudden, right, there’s a lot of experts that pop up. And so and so without willing to accept that self sovereignty, right, like, that creates a job right, like karma and all of these other energetic entanglements that, you know, that do that you that it is important, though, I think that there is also a different when we talk about amends, and other things, I do think there is important to also people understand if they need to cut energetic entanglements and those other items, as well as a means of letting go, which does not require getting the other person involved in other things, it just simply, you know, acknowledges understanding ourselves as much deeper than some flesh and bone.

Sunshine   46:33

No, I yeah, I would agree with that wholeheartedly. It’s a I’ve, and I don’t know, you know, I don’t really know. And it’s, it’s strange, even when I try to go back to think about what my perspective would have been, like, 20 years ago, you know, in my early to mid 20s, if I would have had the same kind of perspective, I probably wouldn’t have, I think I would have expected people to, you know, I think I would have been giving my sovereignty away in some regards, and expecting other people to tell me what I needed to be in order to be for them, and good for them, and things of that nature, you know, even like, job and, you know, career wise and stuff like that. But it’s, it’s, uh, you know, that vulnerability, that willingness to be our own self, that willingness to, you know, speak, define our own truth. Right, rather than allowing other people to, you know, to state what it should be. But I mean, it goes back to it’s, it can, it can be very uncomfortable, you know, and I’ve shared this with a handful of folks, I don’t have a single individual that I hang with, hang out with on a regular basis, in my life today that existed in my life six years ago. Not a single one of them. Right. And, you know, I for some odd reason, I find it very easy to make friends. But if somebody did not, right, and they were about to go down the path in life, that they were going to claim their sovereign self again and step in and become vulnerable and find their own truth, they may start to realize that all of the folks that you know that they’re in a house of cards, so to speak.

Graham Skidmore  48:32

Well, I agree with you. And I want to add, so speaking of the word truth, right, because we’ve talked about that’s, you know, that’s a word that has really been empowered or used liberally. That’s very popular, right. And so the hit so the other part of it is the hard truth. Right, and what the hard truth that I and we talked about this and being raised the hard truth that I had to get over when I was reflecting back on a lot of things was the lies that I was also telling myself in my own self sovereignty, right, I would have and I think many would have also been surprised because I was like, if anybody would have looked from the outside, they would have felt like Graham plays by his own set of rules. I mean, I’ve been called the wild man I’ve been called they’re, like, all kinds of things that I just consider, like normal stuff apparently are considered, you know, wild or not necessarily, you know, in accordance with with society’s preference is or whatever.

Sunshine   49:23

So I’m sorry, I got it. I have to interject on this. Here’s the here’s the weird thing to me on it. They called you wild because you probably were being more like yourself and they were taking a step back and going like oh my god how can he be so much like himself and not like everyone else?

Graham Skidmore  49:44

Yeah, that’s a very you truly Yeah, I yeah, this is true. I recognize how different Yeah, the more Yeah, and you’re right and I did beat my own drum way more than I ever realized and I still more than mortars, but that but What I had into your points, what I had to accept was so hard was how much of my self sovereignty I did give away. Right even. And it was it was interesting, because what people saw was me fighting to keep some self sovereignty, because I was giving it away in these other places to be who I felt that I needed to be to be an unhealthy magician, right, transforming myself to the part that I believed was needed. And there was a time in my life when I literally, I remember having this conversation with Jay, a friend of mine. And I said, you know, man, I don’t even know who I am anymore. I just literally feel like a conglomerate of learned behaviors. And like, I have no I am anymore. And that was one that was one of, you know, within a year or two later, I was that was when you know, life changed, because I did I lost such a, I became that kind of psychosis, not in the, you know, I was very fortunate that I didn’t have bottoms others have had, but it definitely, you know, snapped inside me where we got to the point where this thing right anymore, and this is like toxic. And you’re like I toxified myself, right? Right. Like I was the most I was the most toxic thing in my life as I guess what I was like, Yeah,

Sunshine   51:06

I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s how it’s everyone’s rock. Rock bottom is we finally realize we are the most destructive thing in our own life. Right? That is, and it looks different for every fucking person. Right? Some people literally will have find lives lost because of it. You know, we’re talking about drunk driving, overdoses, things of that nature, versus other people lose their children. Right? I mean, you know, and the reason why is like, and don’t get me wrong for anybody that is listening, and you know, maybe you’re in an in a space or an experience that you’re like, you’re getting the warning signs, like you’re getting the taps on the shoulder, that’s saying you’re heading there, right? Like it like it doesn’t it doesn’t sneak the fuck up on you. Right? It’s not just like one day, you’re like, Oh, good morning, I’m in my rock bottom. It’s like, it’s been happening for days and weeks and months over time, and you’ve continued to ignore it. Because you thought you had the answers. You thought you had it under control. You thought that you know, that that delusion that you’re saying where you thought, you know, and realizing it wasn’t? Right. But yeah, it’s uh, it’s that rock bottom looks different for everyone. It feels that way aren’t you? It is that realization that you are literally the worst thing in your own life

Graham Skidmore  52:35

yeah, it’s uh yeah, when we talk about making that amends and doing that to heal self and other things right? It becomes a really weird mind screw like Like for me, let me say I can say right for myself and my experience to just go like you know, if I can just if I can just treat myself the way that I treat other people right, if I can just, if I can give my son I literally just had this conference. I had this conversation yesterday I did yesterday getting reflexology done, you know, meditating to myself while this is happening of forgiveness, and walking myself through how I give forgiveness to others and my logic behind it. And why do I struggle to follow and believe my owns when I applying it to myself? Right? I firmly for those that I love and care for my love is unconditional. I you had to do what you had to do to get through it and learn all I ask is that you fucking learn right? Like I’m only wanting to be a doormat for so for you know, eventually so long while you’re learning but as long as you get to that as long as you keep trying and hey man, I’m here with you just keep keep you know, keep going. Oh, yeah. And then but yet why was I not willing to accept that from other people? Right Well, I give I do it and it’s there. Like I get cognitively how it is. I know that it works this way people do it because I do it right. So there’s to that point, like there’s zero logical reason to wrap my mind around why is this such a hard thing for me to just accept? Right? Like and it was and it was and it’s so that’s quite fascinating to walk myself through to allow myself to accept forgiveness from myself.

Sunshine   54:16

Oh god, I it is it is wild to me sometimes Wild Wild watching how poorly people will treat themselves and yet treat a complete stranger. Like you know, they’re the Queen of England you know rest her soul right but no it’s it’s it’s wild and I mean they we go we go into all sorts of you know, I said before it’s those I am swear that ego it should be a blessing. It has a lot of really good things that it brings to us but if we have a story of I’m not worthy, buried at all within that ego Yeah, that We are often treating people better than we are treating ourselves.

Graham Skidmore  55:03

And so you just no good. So you hit into something, which is another great which is. And this is something that I think that it’s easy to get caught up in is always all that stuff that I need to do to get rid of, and not all of the stuff that I need to stop doing, right, it’s easy to do. But if as you, you know, as you stopped doing stuff, someone else is gonna fill it fill has to fill the void, you know of time or energy or whatever it was. And when you’ve talked about it a quite a few times now, which is regarding and this is where I think this is what I think this is where I think that the simple in my understanding of the design of the design behind the system is way more simple than than what it has been made out to be an understanding and written about, for example, the you may not know all of the answers of how to trust your higher self, all of these other things, right, that we’ve talked about, there’s all this other uncertainty, there’s all these other things and unknowns, right? And is, but the ones and all that is true. But the one thing too that can that is that is given that makes it simple is like you talking about whether somebody wants to believe the I am statements is the way or there are other phrasings. But it’s but it’s identifying what who you are and what you want to be. And as long as you always know who you are, what you want to be. And then you will also define what am I willing to do and not willing to do to get there. None of the other stuff matters, because you’re always looking at where you’re trying to get to. And you’re looking at it because that’s where you’re at peace. And that’s where you’re happy and you’re authentic and genuine self is. And I think that there’s way too much time also spent on you need to feel bad first, you can’t feel good until you feel bad. You got to do amends and feel shitty before I’m allowed you to feel good. And there’s all that teaching involved when instead it’s Wait a second, all these things I experienced were all part of where I’m trying to get to, to understand and be my authentic self. And I needed to learn. And so let me just forgive myself some grace and love and move forward. And now let me focus on what I should be focused on, which is not being so focused on trying to get confused and wait for something to fall from the heavens to tell me where I’m supposed to go. So to speak, and focus on defining where I want to go for myself. And then once and then because the way I say that is because if I here’s what I had to also learn and I’m still struggling as if I can’t define for myself what I want. How can I expect the universe and everybody else around me to provide it for me? Yep. That goes back to the simplicity of it, right? I until I can, until I can define who I want to be and why I want to be this way, and what I want to achieve doing it? How can I expect society in the university for to to to provide me the support properly? So anyway, I’ll kind of what do you think about kind of closed, you know, as our as our thing on the outcome aspect like that?

Sunshine   57:57

Yeah, I mean that to me? Yeah, no, I love that. And I’ve said many, many times, for folks that have ever followed me, you know, I don’t know if I’ve said it on this podcast or the other or through emails or whatever. But I truly believe one of the most powerful things that we have as a human being is choice. You know, you and I have had these many, many conversations, right? And so, like that, to me is is just it, like you have to choose, you know, you have to choose something I and I don’t care if even if you choose not to change anything in your life, that’s still a choice that you’re making. Right? And so I personally my own belief is, is when I walk this path in life, and I wake up every morning I would much rather be able to make a choice, right to ask my guides, you know, what my options are to look at and weigh where the best path forward is. And you know, and to make a choice to choose to do that right rather than just let life keep passing me by

Graham Skidmore  58:58

you don’t realize that happiness is you know, life of self guided choices doesn’t mean they’re all easy choices right? Right let me in for anyone listening let me tell you when I say choices, but I made the choice to have five policemen evict my you know mentally ill mother who was a hoarder and barely you know and living in a corner of the of the condo that I was right. So when I talk about you know, living it was but the fact that it was finally my choice that I stopped allowing the guilt to hang over me that I had this responsibility and now I didn’t do it right. That choice once I once I got my choice took my choice back I felt so good. Doesn’t mean that didn’t feel horrible about watching what occurred with with with that tour. But to your point, I forgot how that’s what it was when that anger that I felt in or start to resentment was allowing, allowing the giving up a choice to somebody else and nobody to blame but myself, ya know, openly but myself,

Sunshine   59:58

ya know? No, no, absolutely. So this was great. I think you did a spectacular job today. Those are some awesome questions that you’ve asked. So

Graham Skidmore  1:00:08

yeah, so, so hopefully, yeah, we got that you said we needed seven questions. And we, you know, we kind of kept it pretty right after we just got going on, you know, and I had some others, but on the first one, but ya know, anyway, I

Sunshine   1:00:18

know, I thought that was great. It was great. So I agree. So normally with uh, you know, our guest, and like I said, I haven’t seen the email come through. So hopefully our guest was supposed to be on with us today is okay. And you know, those prayers are out there. I do know that they, they themselves are an author and had a really great story. So hopefully, fingers crossed, they’ll come back around. But anything you want to kind of wrap up with here today. You know, Graham, anything that you think is important and valuable that we need to share with our listeners, or your guides or your Higher Self expressing any type of message that would be poignant for us to wrap up today.

Graham Skidmore  1:00:57

Just be curious, let’s you know, just be curious and desire more for yourself every day. That’s it. You design a more for yourself. Yeah,

Sunshine   1:01:08

I love that. And I would encourage you just as we wrap this, this session here today, as we would normally do, allow that curiosity to help you find your path. Follow that take the choice to follow that path into your own deepest spirituality. Much love from Graham and I to all of you take care of everyone.

Graham Skidmore  1:01:27

Thank you! take care.